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Starting again!
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FA Just Baccy
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PG/VG Purity
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Why not try quitting smok...
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Eric Bristow
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  Sorry but I am starting again
Posted by: P2PLeon - 19-05-2018, 08:13 PM - Forum: My Vaping Journey - No Replies

Sorry that I had not been listening to anyone.
Sorry that after all this time have not come to terms with me just smoking.
Sorry to anyone who thought that I could quit easily.
Sorry for me not Vaping each time I said that I would and did not.

I am hoping that all of you can help me in this time of need.
I am hoping that many of you will still post on my threads.

As of 20:00 pm (7 pm if the clocks did not go forward) I will be only Vaping.

I will try and continue to do MTL with High Nicotine juice. Preferably 18 mg/ml. Or 12mg/ml.

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  PG/VG Purity
Posted by: P2PLeon - 12-04-2018, 01:09 AM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

This information came from a member on a different forum called Rolygate as it safety related I am sure he won't mind me posting this

This information is primarily for DIY purposes and describes the grades suitable for inhalation.

Three base liquid carriers are used for e-liquid manufacture: PG, VG and PEG - propylene glycol, glycerol (which we tend to refer to as VG or 'vegetable glycerine') and polyethene glycol.

These liquids are all alcohols (and not oils), as can be seen by the -ol suffix of their common names. There are a multitude of both common and chemical names for these materials, as is normal, and some of the more common chemical names (more precise definitions of their nature than the common names) are:-

PG: propane 1,2 diol

VG: propane 2,3 triol

When used as the carrier for other materials, they can be referred to as excipients or diluents, especially when they are essentially inert in the human organism, as these materials are. That is to say, they have no major function or effect* and are treated as carbohydrates, metabolised, and excreted. Both PG and VG are used as the base for medical inhalers; in fact PG is used as the excipient for the medicinal inhalers used by lung transplant patients, and both PG and VG are used in asthma inhalers, so it should be fairly obvious that these materials are completely harmless for inhalation, at least in the short to medium term. There are questions about high-volume long-term use but these can only be answered after 20 years use for vaping; currently, it seems unlikely that serious issues will result since we would have seen some indication of this in asthma patients, who have of course used such inhalants for decades.

* PG is reported to act on the organism in the same way as ethanol but with around one-third of the effect. This can be ignored with the very small quantities consumed in vaping.

MSDS

The MSDS sheets for these materials can be safely completely ignored. This is an important point to make since the MSDS makes all materials without exception sound like chemical warfare agents: see the MSDS for water and for salt, for example.

It is obvious that if asthma patients are encouraged to inhale them for decades, and they are supplied without reservation to lung transplant patients for inhalation, they are regarded as inert and harmless.

The purpose of the MSDS is for bulk storage contractors, transport contractors and fire officers. In case of mass release and inundation of a worker, for example, there need to be documented hazard procedures. You can drown in a tank of these materials but that is the only practical hazard. To evaluate the real threat from a material, the MSDS-quoted dose can be checked: if it quotes a risk from amounts measured in milligrammes, such as 100mg, then there is a possible risk; 45 gallons of PG or VG are only dangerous, like water, if you fall into a barrel of it. They are used for inhalation therapies by persons in the most fragile of health and with the most serious lung conditions.

Purity

In theory, only the pharma grade of these materials should be used for inhalation, since all other grades contain contaminants to an increasing degree (the difference between the grades is the percentage of contaminants). The problem here is that DIYers and perhaps many small-scale manufacturers do not have access to pharma grade materials, so food grade materials must be used. Indeed, it is reported that some pharmaceutical suppliers are actively trying to prevent access to their top-grade materials by ecig products manufacturers.

This is more an issue of excessive regulation or fear of legal problems reducing safety than anything else.

There may not be any practical difference between the pharmaceutical grade and food grade materials from some suppliers. The only difference might even be that the pharma grade is specially tested and comes with a test certificate. However, we do know that there is a difference between low-grade and high-grade materials in vaping products (though we cannot know what certificates/grades were supplied) because more tests are now showing MEG contamination - (mono)ethylene glycol - which is toxic, as is DEG. In fact, it looks as if DEG contamination has been replaced by MEG contamination in the marketplace, perhaps because suppliers know to test for DEG but are unaware that low-grade PG may contain MEG.

Regulation

If e-cigarettes become regulated then it is likely that only pharma grade will be allowed for inhalation duty. The advantage of this is the minimal contaminant load; the disadvantage is that prices go up. Everyone has a different opinion on this, so in the current climate, where ingredients are unregulated / untested in some countries, perhaps vendors should simply publish what their policy is: either "we use pharma grade only", or "we use food grade", or "we use food grade and also test for X and X". Then people could choose accordingly. Some sort of proof would need to be offered if a vendor makes specific statements - talk is cheap, after all.

Grades

These carrier materials are made in four grades:

Pharmaceutical Grade - for human consumption including by inhalation

Food Grade - for human consumption by ingestion but not inhalation

Agricultural (Farm) Grade - for use in connection with animals

Industrial Grade - for use in machinery, manufacturing and similar purposes

All of these grades contain contaminants, in increasing amounts as the grade quality reduces (with the exception noted above: some Food Grade and Pharmaceutical Grade products may be the same and only differentiated by the cost of testing and certification). This is the difference in the grades.

DO NOT BUY FARM GRADE OR INDUSTRIAL GRADE MATERIALS FOR INHALATION - contamination levels may be higher than allowable for safe inhalation.

There is a possibility that Food Grade should not be inhaled because the digestive system can handle the contaminants in it that the lungs may not be able to. It is likely there will be significant differences between food grade products from different suppliers.

PG and VG are both sold in good quality and are labelled:

Propylene Glycol, USP (or BP or EU)

Glycerine, USP (or BP or EU)

It is possible that a USP product can be either pharma grade or food grade. The USP designation only refers to a general production regime and does not cover the exact contaminants as long as the minimum standard is met. So a USP product might be considered safe for inhalation; or it might, on test, prove inadvisable to inhale. The only product that is guaranteed to be suitable for inhalation is a product that is (a) designated by the manufacturer as Pharmaceutical Grade, and that (b) also has a provable license for inclusion in a specific inhalable medicine. Needless to say, this is virtually impossible to locate for the individual buyer. A vendor would be able to buy e.g. Dow Optim glycerine or PuraGuard PG in quantity, for mixing down and be assured the material is suitable. (This doesn't take into account the nicotine base carrier PG or glycerine, though.) It can be bought in 18-litre containers and up, so is suitable for e-liquid manufacturers, though manufacturers may try to prevent ecig product manufacturers from obtaining high-quality products.

As a practical example, the FDA has warned that glycerine marked USP may contain toxic components from biodiesel byproduct manufacture, and currently there appears to be no way of determining whether or not a USP product contains biodiesel byproduct glycerine. Only synthetic pharma grade glycerine can be be assumed to be free of such contaminants at this time.

PG

There appears to be a current problem (2015) with some supplies of food grade PG that has detectable levels of MEG. This is not suitable for inhalation.

VG

The use of the term VG to describe the glycerine we use for inhalation is probably obsolete now, and stems from the early days of e-cigarette use when there was little use of Glycerine USP and DIYers had a choice between vegetable-source glycerine and animal-source glycerine [1]. If synthetic glycerol is used [2] its origin is irrelevant, as it is absolutely pure.

[1] Glycerine can be made from a multiplicity of sources including animal carcases, biodiesel manufacture byproduct, palm oil, coconut oil, a combination of vegetable sources, or synthetically.

[2] To see more info on synthetic glycerine, google 'dow optim'.

Note

Glycerine made as a byproduct of biodiesel production should NEVER under any circumstances be used for any human consumption of any kind, and especially not inhaled. It is likely to be carcinogenic because some of the vegetation used for modern biodiesel production is toxic (e.g. the Jatropha plant). How to exclude this material from the production chain is another matter entirely, and this is a matter for serious concern at present.

PEG

It is better to avoid PEG for DIY purposes if purchased 'ad hoc', i.e. not from a trusted vendor of inhalation products, as it is difficult to source in the correct viscosity (PEG400); but mainly because it is the most likely of all the excipients to be contaminated with DEG, a poison. It should probably not be used by anyone without access to a testing facility for DEG.

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  Why not try quitting smoking
Posted by: P2PLeon - 11-04-2018, 02:44 AM - Forum: Your Health - No Replies





Just seen this and thought about posting here.

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  Bottles for Nic
Posted by: P2PLeon - 07-04-2018, 11:46 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

Just wondered if the following https://www.ampulla.co.uk/product.asp?st...Position=1 Would be suitable for Nicotine Storage.

As I have 4 Litres of PG based Nicotine 72mg/ml. They came as 2 lots of 4 bottle of 500ml each.

The reason why I am asking is that I would like to decant 1 bottle so it would be easy to use the Nic as and when I need to.

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  Eric Bristow
Posted by: P2PLeon - 05-04-2018, 11:04 PM - Forum: Yearly/Daily - No Replies

Just seen on the news that Eric Bristow has passed on aged 60, He won the world darts championships from 1980-86.

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  FA Just Baccy
Posted by: P2PLeon - 03-04-2018, 08:01 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - Replies (1)

Just made a small batch up of 10ml of Flavour Arts Just Baccy. Never added any nicotine, but vapes nicely. Just do not know what they put in it but is a nice Vape.

Next time I make it I will add Nicotine and make a bigger batch than this.

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  Red Astaire
Posted by: P2PLeon - 29-03-2018, 09:18 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

You really can't go wrong with this fruity favourite from T-Juice.

Simply a one shot concentrate mix which I'd recommend you mix at 15-20%.

What they say :- The lush taste of red berries and black grape is stampeded by verbose overtones of sweet eucalyptus, aniseed and menthol in a flavour that will stay dancing on your tongue for a long time after you have exhaled.

Only £9.99 for 30ml and if mixed at 15% makes 200ml of juice  [Image: grin.png] 

www.t-juice.com/shop/red-astaire-concentrate/

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  Nicotine Storage
Posted by: P2PLeon - 29-03-2018, 08:53 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

Piratevape has given a very good guide to storing Nic


With the E.U. TPD regulations just around the corner, one way to minimise their effects on your vaping is to stock up with some 7.2% Nicotine Base so you can continue to make your own e-liquid the way you like it. Piratesvape are specialists in providing Nicotine Base packaged specifically to make storing nicotine a matter of buying it, unpacking it and putting it in the freezer. BUT you say - why freeze it? how do I freeze it? how long will it last? Read on...... 



Nicotine WILL NOT degrade if it is 100% pure and nitrogen sealed in dark glass bottles and kept at a low temperature. That's how professional labs keep it so it’s as close as a fact as you will get when it comes to nicotine storage! Obviously, you aren’t going to be able to achieve all those criteria at home (you won't have 100% pure nicotine being the main one) BUT the majority of us could accomplish two of those important criteria. 





Once you add other chemicals such as PG or VG into the bottle and can't remove all the oxygen then degradation occurs. At what rate and the effect is open to question as no one has actually kept PG or VG nicotine base in a freezer for more than about 5 years so far but it will degrade to some degree even if you do keep it in your freezer. The issue really is with the oxygen either from air trapped in the bottle or through energy put into the chemical system via light (UV) breaking down the dilutant (PG or VG), which unfortunately being organic compounds have oxygen in their make up. It's fine normally because the oxygen in the dilutant is attached to a hydrogen, making a diol (O-H) and will not compete for the nicotine but if you add energy into the system the one single covalent bond between the oxygen and the hydrogen can be broken and you have the issue of the spare oxygen running around causing problems. This is the reason to keep the nic base in amber glass bottles and is the same reason that nicotine is kept nitrogen sealed in labs - so there are no spare oxygen atoms. Keeping the nicotine base at low (freezer) temperatures also slows down the movement of the molecules, which obviously slows down any chemical reactions.





Oxygen is nicotine’s main enemy, it converts it to nicotine oxide in an oxidation reaction and nicotine oxide being a charged molecule has free electrons, this is why the colour change occurs (free electron movement between the atomic energy levels). These free electrons can also target other substances in e-liquid such as flavourings and changes their chemical structure, which coincidentally is the reason why e-liquid has a shelf life.



Storage Basics



Always buy the highest % nicotine base you can buy (currently 7.2% legally in the UK) as the less PG/VG you have in the bottle the better and always buy the best quality, the freshest base you can find to start off with.



What to store it in?



Nicotine base should be stored in dark amber glass bottles to stop UV degradation and potential chemical leaching caused by plastic bottles.



How to store it?



Depending on your usage if you bought 1 litre+ bottles then you should decant it into smaller quantity bottles containing the amount you would probably use in 3 or 4 months so that you aren't exposing the majority of the nicotine base to more oxygen every time you want to use it. Once you open a bottle it’s best to store it in a fridge if possible rather than just a shelf at room temperature and ALWAYS out of sunlight. It is worth noting that PG nicotine base remains fairly free-flowing even straight out of the freezer but VG base turns into a gel and will need several hours at room temperature to be useable.





Where in the freezer to store it?



Purely from a safety point of view, it is best to store it at the bottom of the freezer so that if it does leak it doesn't contaminate anything else in the freezer. I know that some people have a separate freezer for their nicotine base but plenty just stick it in with rest of the families shopping! Make sure that the bottle is clearly labelled, not for you but for the other people using the freezer. If you have young children it would be very wise, if not essential, to buy a small freezer to keep in the garage or similar just for your nicotine stocks.





What's better, PG or VG as the Dilutant?



A personal preference really but with regards to degradation then VG has an extra O-H functional group (3 compared to 2 in PG) so it is possible that if degradation did take place it would be quicker in the VG. However VG has a better shelf life than PG, 2 years compared to 1 year generally AND VG’s viscosity works in its favour for once as the more viscous a liquid the less the molecules move about …… so it’s probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other really as to which is best!  



How long will it last?



It would be expected to possibly see and experience noticeable degradation after 5 -10 years storage either in taste or colour. Strength drop would need chemical analysis once someone has stored it for that long to determine but it is believed by many that it won't be anywhere near half.



What not to do



Leave the bottles alone! The less they are disturbed the better. DO NOT open the bottles if you don't need to and never shake them as this introduces oxygen to more of the nicotine base rather than just the surface.

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  VG Properties
Posted by: P2PLeon - 29-03-2018, 08:49 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

Vegetable Glycerin (VG):


VG is a colourless (or VERY light tan-opaque), odourless, very viscous liquid, the other common solvent used in eliquid (along with PG). When stored properly, in a cool (<40C), dry environment, VG will remain free from oxidation or degradation for one year. Most highly regard VG for its smoothness and large vapour production, and it is excellent in these two areas. However, VG lacks the robust flavour solubility that PG possesses, and has a quicker expiration date. 


Vegetable glycerin is made directly from vegetable oil — often coconut or palm oil — by heating it to a high temperature under pressure with water. The glycerin backbone splits off from the fatty acids and is absorbed by the water, from which it is then isolated and distilled to obtain the pure product.



Glycerol forms the “backbone” of many lipids, or oils and fats, and there are various processes that can be used to extract it from these substances. Most glycerin is made as a by-product of the manufacture of soap. In this process, either animal fat or vegetable oil can be used. It is heated with a strong alkali, usually caustic soda (sodium hydroxide), which produces soap and a solution of glycerin in water. This solution is then purified by distillation. So when you are reading negative properties of vaping its half-ass research that finds this process then makes assumptions.



Vegetable Glycerin is widely used in the food industry for two main reasons: it has a sweet taste, but has fewer calories than sugar; and it is hygroscopic, that is, it absorbs moisture from the air. It is therefore used both to sweeten foods and to keep them moist. The compound is metabolized more slowly than sucrose — the type of sugar most commonly found in candy and in processed foods — and therefore does not have such a dramatic effect on blood sugar levels. It also does not contribute to bacterial tooth decay. Foods marketed as being low in carbohydrates are often sweetened with glycerin.



There are also medical uses for vegetable glycerin. It is a common ingredient in cough mixtures, due to its soothing properties. Other applications are as a topical remedy for a number of skin problems, including psoriasis, rashes, burns, bedsores and cuts; as a laxative, in the form of suppositories; and to treat gum disease, as it inactivates the associated bacterial colonies.



Glycerin, also known as glycerol, is an organic compound of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen with the chemical formula C3H8O3. It can be made from animal fat or, in the case of vegetable glycerin, vegetable oil. The source of the raw material does not affect the chemistry of the final product, but, since glycerin is widely used in foods and medications, this distinction is important for vegetarians. It is also used as a sweetener and as an ingredient in a number of cosmetic products.



The compound consists of a chain of three carbon atoms, to which are attached hydrogen atoms on one side and hydroxyl (OH) groups on the other. The three OH groups form hydrogen bonds between molecules, giving the compound a syrup-like viscosity and allowing it to dissolve easily in water. Chemically speaking, glycerin is an alcohol, but for food purposes, it is classed — in the USA — as a carbohydrate by the Federal Food and Drug Administration (FDA), because it provides calories and is not a fat or a protein.

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  PG Properties
Posted by: P2PLeon - 29-03-2018, 08:47 PM - Forum: E-Juice Making 101 - No Replies

Propylene Glycol (PG):

Propylene glycol (PG) is a mostly inert organic compound. It is clear, colourless and highly miscible with water. It is used in electronic cigarettes as a carrier base to carry the nicotine and food flavours into vapour form with the application of heat from the atomizer coil. Propylene glycol carries flavour better than vegetable glycerine but produces less vapour.



Propylene glycol is, in effect an alcohol, but not in the sense of “get me tipsy” alcohol. It contains two alcohol groups which enable it to be so water soluble. The molecule contains carbon, hydrogen and oxygen with the chemical formula C3H8O2.



Propylene glycol is both odourless and tasteless and has been approved by the FDA as a solubilizing agent for different types of medications. It is also used in the food, cosmetic, pharmaceutical and chemical industries, and is used to generate theatre fog! Its wide use means much is known about the safety of this material.

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